Interesting claim from Barona Casino in San Diego

[Deb]

So I was poking around their website this morning and clicked on gaming and then of course on slots and saw an advertisement for "The Loose Troops" apparently they have signage on certain games that their loose troop techs "loosen" Hmmmmm?:rolleyes:

Here is the link:
http://www.barona.com/casino/gaming/slots/

What do you guys make of this, if anything?

[oleslotguy]

Hi Deb, 'looser' than what? Our other like machines, our competitors machines? How much 'looser'? Ever LYA on a advertised 98% slot? 1-2% would mean that you would notice NO difference at all with our few measly spins as compared to the billions of combinations in the programing.

Really, IMHO, it means exactly nothing. Just advertising hype.

[Jdash41]

Very interesting- to me anyway. It might be just ad hype but I'm kind of surprised. I thought at least that most slot "experts" generally claimed that casinos don't alter the machines once they receive them. So it's a catchy claim they are making.

Oleslotguy you sure are right about those advertised 98% payback machines from my experience. I have never done anything on those except lose. And usually I have lost fast- not even small wins that keep me going. Kind of like machines that say 1024 (or whatever) ways to win. Yeah right. Or lose- for me.

[CoushattaSlots]

Casinos do this type of thing once in a while. Oleslotguy and Jdash41 make great points.

For it to mean anything to anyone, you do have to get an answer to the question, "Looser than what?" and even if you know what that answer is, it's really not going to mean anything to you on your session of play.

Barona is doing this program "in-house" without outside consultants. This saves money but the credibility can suffer.

There are a few independant companies and indivduals out there who will come in and "certify" that specific slots are looser than others. (Strictly Slots is one of them) You have to specify what you're trying to accomplish (or they'll make suggestions). For example, if you're in a market where the hold percentage by denom is public info they'll look at that and compare the holds to your games. Let's say the average hold in that jurisdiction for $1 machines is 6%. They'd look at your machines and find the ones that hold less than 6%. They'd verify the software in the game, then "certify" it to be "Looser" (than the jurisdiction average). There is a considerable cost to the companies for this service. I'd guess Barona doesn't think the cost for an outside consultant is worth it since they can't get actual numbers from their competitors anyway.

The big question for any casino is, does this do any good? If you can get the "loose" mindset out there, maybe. The problem is people think they're going to do better on a game that's "certified" and when they don't they get upset and think it's BS anyway.

[CoushattaSlots]

It looks like they do use consultants for Video Poker and some tables

Barona Resort & Casino

•Certified loosest video poker in San Diego by renowned expert Bob Dancer
•Best Blackjack in the country – Casino Player magazine
•Certified loosest Blackjack in California by the Blackjack Hall of Fame
•Certified “Most liberal rules in San Diego for blackjack, roulette, craps, and 3-card poker.” by WizardOfOdds.com

[mst011m]

I think it shows the casino has the capability of adjusting the slot paybacks on their machines. Probably most of the time in their favor.

[Deb]

Thank you Coushatta for your insight. And everyone else too for their opinions. I find it interesting to make such a claim. As far as I know when a carousel/kiosk of machines has 98% payback noted there only has to be ONE in that bank for them to advertise that. Does anyone know if this is true? We have had a lot of discussion on here about if casinos tighten their machines. Some of us say no because of the gaming rules and the red tape involved and some of us say yes.... for obvious reasons. Well now after reading their claim, it makes me think (at least with the NA casinos) that they just might have the ability to do that very easily. Hmmm now I am more confused than ever!

I have always been in the mindset that the casinos DON'T change their paybacks....but now I am not so sure.......

[CoushattaSlots]

Thank you Coushatta for your insight. And everyone else too for their opinions. I find it interesting to make such a claim. As far as I know when a carousel/kiosk of machines has 98% payback noted there only has to be ONE in that bank for them to advertise that. Does anyone know if this is true? We have had a lot of discussion on here about if casinos tighten their machines. Some of us say no because of the gaming rules and the red tape involved and some of us say yes.... for obvious reasons. Well now after reading their claim, it makes me think (at least with the NA casinos) that they just might have the ability to do that very easily. Hmmm now I am more confused than ever!

I have always been in the mindset that the casinos DON'T change their paybacks....but now I am not so sure.......

On the first point, I'd say you'd have to read the fine print on the sign, and REALLY read it. If they're saying "this machine" on the 98% then it won't be the whole bank. If they say "this bank averages 98%" then they could all be set the same, or some could higher and some looser giving them the 98%. There's a lot of different ways they could word it, and whichever way they did, you can bet a lot of thought went into it. If the wording is unclear, the right people at the casino will know the right answers to the program, but it won't be the slot floor people. You'd probably have to go up the chain to get a good answer.

On the second point, casinos don't often change the hold percentages but if they want to they can, and it isn't all that difficult. It generally requires some sort of regulatory notification and paperwork, then the game has to go out of service, the tech has to set up the new configuration, and put it back in service. (This is of course in a non Server Based environment, the threads on SBG cover the SBG environment)

The reason they don't do this often is the same reason a player won't see a benefit in playing a 98% return machine on a given trip. It takes a lot of spins, like millions, for a player or a casino to see the benefit from loosening or tightening a machine. Generally the casino has put in guidelines on hold percentage by denom and game type and "set it and forget it".

I've seen some casinos do a performance report on their machines, then go around and post signs on particular machines along the lines of "This machine paid out 180%". The fine print says something like "based upon performance from X date and time to Y date and time". So, what they did was find the current losing machines (they're out there) and publish the data on those. (Notice they're not publishing the numbers on the winning ones! :p ) Does knowing that a machine has been losing for the last 30 days mean anything to the player? Well, it shouldn't. Remember, like the stock market, past performance does not indicate future performance.

[Deb]

Exactly. I personally think that the casinos really don't mess with it because it just seems like it really isn't worth the bother. When friends or family say to me " XYZ casino is not the same they have tightened their slots" I always dismiss what they are saying. I just don't agree that's all. What you are saying about the banks that claim certain paybacks is really interesting and I honestly have never taken the time to read any of it. I normally don't play those games anyway ! lol Maybe I should start??? lmao

As usual thank you for the information, you are a gem to have on here.

[oleslotguy]

Exactly. I personally think that the casinos really don't mess with it because it just seems like it really isn't worth the bother. When friends or family say to me " XYZ casino is not the same they have tightened their slots" I always dismiss what they are saying. I just don't agree that's all. What you are saying about the banks that claim certain paybacks is really interesting and I honestly have never taken the time to read any of it. I normally don't play those games anyway ! lol Maybe I should start??? lmao

As usual thank you for the information, you are a gem to have on here.

Hi Deb, "Isn't worth the bother". I refer you to all the threads on MI's SouringEagle. Even their HL players have abandoned them in the last 2yrs. IE: see RandyP's posts.
Couple yrs ago I myself was running over $100,000 @yr, through their slots playing $.25-$5 machines due to a lot of 'play/payback'. Hardly ever touched the 1c-5c videos, which I play nearly exclusively now, and do better on, time/moneywise. Those 3 reel/1line machines now set empty MOST of the time. There is no longer any play back, and not worth MY bother to play 'em.
I've stated b/4 our numerous trips of 1-2 times a week compared to our now once a month. Anyone who doubts my statements should give them a try.

PS...bring a lot of money;)

[ldrider]

New here - a good dose of skepticism is always a good idea when dealing with casino (or any other) advertising. In this case - I believe what they are saying and what their employees are saying is that they are loosening up this particular game. As it is advertised - they are loosening up at least 5 games every weekday. Looser than what? is certainly a valid point - but they are not claiming at this point that the game is looser than anything or anywhere - other than looser than the day it was before. Of course, in short term play this is meaningless to anyone. However, over time and lots and lots of handle pulls it means the casino is going to make less money on this machine than it was at the previous setting. Whether that is loose, looser, or loosest or loose enough (which it never is) is up to the player to decide. It really comes down to whether Barona has credibility with you and do you believe them.

As for certification. It is very difficult to get a group or agency to certify what you can not compare to. With video poker it is relatively easy to visit other casinos and compare games- so it is certifiable. For video and stepper slots - it is impossible to compare one Indian casino to another because they don't publish their data. Even the gaming abstracts from NV only publish "Las Vegas Strip" or LV Downtown, or Reno or Douglas County aren't really comparable because you compare to the group not to the individual casino. That and the fact that what they report are the ACTUAL wins - not what the games are set at. An - a casino might have a big player come in and kick their rears on $5 machines in one month. They would be reporting 100+% paybacks in that denomination overall. This would also skew the results for the overall casino. The only places where fairly accurate ideas about setting trends available are from states that report each casino and their denomination results - such as Illinois riverboats. Even then - you are looking at actual results, not what the games are theoretically set. But you can get an idea over time as to which casinos are more liberal than their competitors. For example - take a look at Strictly Slots and compare several months of results and you can get an idea of Harrah's philosophy on slots (who are currently asking the mfg's to create tighter programs than are currently readily available.
You might get good comps there - you certainly will not get good payback percentages.

[slotspert]

Server-Based Slots now hitting the market (just played some Wolf-Run in Reno Airport, Terminal A) have a box top and game which is completely reprogrammable by the slot manager to alter game and PAYBACK based on pre-ordered options from the manufacturer. You can spot these rows of machines by looking at the box top and seeing a picture screen capable of showing another game versus the fixed transparancies in the fixed-game models. So it looks like the days of fixed programming is over and the marketing of variable pre-programmed payback percentages is coming (e.g. Sunday-Thursday higher payout advertising to attract players).

[ldrider]

haven't been in the reno airport in awhile, but I'm doubtful they are running server based games. Dual screen games have been around for awhile and the newer models from IGT whether they are the Multi-layer Display (MLD) or just AVP games (advanced video platform) are fully capable of supporting multiple games at one time. Fixed transparancies (award or belly glass) has been phased out for at least a couple of years as the old 80960 platform games are little supported.
All slot machines are easily capable of having the percentages changed on site - and don't require server based to do it. there are very few server based operations out there. A few Ameristar River boat properties, Aria at the City Center project, also at Monte Carlo, Barona Valley Ranch and a few others. I think they took them out of TI. I think the MGM property in Detroit is offering them. Again - just because there are two screens doesn't mean they are server based - just new. Since I think IGT still operates the concession for slots in the Reno airport and their manufacturing is located there - means they are probably putting in newer games. Server Based requires dedicated wiring (typically fiber optic) and I am very doubtful that the cost of doing this at the would be profitable at the airport.
by the way - if I were going to play slots anywhere in the known universe - either the reno or vegas airport would be about the last place on earth I would do it. I once bid on the concession when I worked for a company in Reno and the cost of doing business and the airport's requirements predicate the machines being on the tight side. You are better off putting your money in a vending machine - though at airport concession prices....that isn't too good of a suggestion, either.

[Yadarra]

From all I've read, I'll never go to that chain again.
:(

My grandparents were devout followers, too...but guess it's time to move on.

And it seems to be a certain type of a machine that they put the 98 percent sign on...one that would be difficult for a player to gauge per spin how close they are to par...

~Crazy Yadi